Legislature(2003 - 2004)

03/31/2003 03:05 PM House JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 214 - PUNITIVE DAMAGES AGAINST EMPLOYERS                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1006                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE  announced that the  final order of  business would                                                               
be  HOUSE BILL  NO.  214, "An  Act relating  to  the recovery  of                                                               
punitive  damages against  an employer  who is  determined to  be                                                               
vicariously liable  for the act  or omission of an  employee; and                                                               
providing for an effective date."                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 0964                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS,  speaking as the sponsor,  explained that                                                               
HB 214  adds a section to  the punitive damage statutes  in order                                                               
to create new  guidelines for damages against  the employer under                                                               
vicarious  liability.    The   legislation  stipulates  that  the                                                               
employer shall not  be responsible for paying  damages unless the                                                               
employer  [authorized]  the  act,  knew  of  the  act  later  and                                                               
approved of it, or the employer  knew that the employee was unfit                                                               
and  employed the  individual anyway.   He  highlighted that  the                                                               
legislation   doesn't  apply   unless  the   employer  has   been                                                               
determined  to be  vicariously liable  anyway.   Furthermore, the                                                               
legislation  strictly   involves  punitive  damages.     Punitive                                                               
damages are  meant to  punish an entity,  usually a  company, for                                                               
bad behavior.   Under HB  214, if  no bad behavior  occurred, the                                                               
company shouldn't  be liable for  punishment.  He  clarified that                                                               
the bill  doesn't pertain to compensatory  damages; only punitive                                                               
damages are addressed.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS  posed an example  in which an owner  of a                                                               
construction  company   with  training  programs,   drug  testing                                                               
programs, and hiring standards informs  an employee that he can't                                                               
drive a  truck because the  employee hasn't been "checked  out in                                                               
the truck."   If the  employee gets in  the truck and  breaks the                                                               
rules  of  the  company,  the company  shouldn't  be  liable  for                                                               
punitive damages because the employee  went against the company's                                                               
policies.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE announced  that she didn't intend to  report HB 214                                                               
from committee today.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 0785                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
PAMELA  LaBOLLE,  President,  Alaska State  Chamber  of  Commerce                                                               
(ASCC),  informed the  committee that  ASCC is  in support  of HB
214.    She  said  it's  unfair to  hold  employers  [liable  for                                                               
punitive  damages]  when the  employers  had  no control  in  the                                                               
situation.   She echoed Representative Samuels's  point that [the                                                               
employers]  would   remain  responsible   under  civil   law  for                                                               
compensatory damages.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE  pointed  out  that   [with  passage  of  HB  214]                                                               
businesses would  be placed in  parity with the State  of Alaska,                                                               
which, as an employer, is immune from punitive damages.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 0663                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MARCIA  R.  DAVIS,  Vice  President   and  General  Counsel,  ERA                                                               
Aviation, Inc.  ("ERA"), announced  strong support HB  214, which                                                               
it  views  as  a  measured,  limited  correction  to  an  earlier                                                               
position  taken by  the Alaska  Supreme Court.   She  relayed the                                                               
belief that  HB 214  impacts a broad  range of  constituents and,                                                               
thus, she  characterized HB  214 as  an employer's  bill, adding,                                                               
however,  that the  bill isn't  anti-employee  legislation.   She                                                               
stated that HB 214 will make a difference to ERA.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS.  DAVIS noted  that ERA  is closely  regulated by  the Federal                                                               
Aviation  Administration (FAA),  and performs  extensive criminal                                                               
background checks  and pre-employment  drug and alcohol  tests on                                                               
all employees.   Furthermore, mandatory  random drug  and alcohol                                                               
tests are  performed on all  of the emergency  medical technician                                                               
employees.   Moreover,  the company  has a  zero-tolerance policy                                                               
regarding drugs  and alcohol at  work, and reserves the  right to                                                               
conduct,  for cause,  drug and  alcohol  testing.   All of  ERA's                                                               
supervisors undergo  annual, mandatory drug-and-alcohol-detection                                                               
training.   Still,  several summers  ago a  seasonal summer-hire,                                                               
driving the  company van  between two  "air locations,"  struck a                                                               
motorcycle.   After the investigation  it was determined  that he                                                               
had consumed alcohol.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS.  DAVIS  said  she  couldn't  think of  anything  else,  as  a                                                               
responsible  employer, that  the company  could've done  to avoid                                                               
the situation.   The plaintiff's  attorney raised the  specter of                                                               
the company  facing many punitive  damages and there  was nothing                                                               
the  company could  do.   Because  the Alaska  Supreme Court  had                                                               
taken  a   strict  liability  [position]  for   punitive  damages                                                               
assessed against an  employee, the company had no  recourse.  Ms.                                                               
Davis  concluded by  noting  that ERA  doesn't  object to  paying                                                               
compensatory damages.   She opined  that punitive  damages should                                                               
function  as punishment  of the  wrongdoer, but  added that  this                                                               
isn't how the law is  currently working.  She strongly encouraged                                                               
the committee to pass HB 214.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 0451                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL  J.  SCHNEIDER,  Attorney,  Law  Offices  of  Michael  J.                                                               
Schneider, PC, began  by saying that in his 28  years in practice                                                               
he has  never obtained a punitive  damage recovery by the  way of                                                               
jury  trial.   He  emphasized that  punitive  damages are  rarely                                                               
awarded  by  Alaskan jurors.    However,  when that  occurs,  the                                                               
[Alaska Supreme Court] almost  universally reverses those awards;                                                               
there are  few exceptions.  Under  current law, at least  half of                                                               
the  benefit  of  the  struggles to  obtain  those  damages  goes                                                               
directly to the State of  Alaska.  Therefore, he characterized HB
214 as a solution in search of a problem.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHNEIDER suggested  that the goals of  the sponsor statement                                                               
are simply  not met by  the legislation.   He inquired  about the                                                               
employer who gives a wink and  a nod to bad conduct - potentially                                                               
dangerous conduct.   Unless the  employer knew that  the employee                                                               
was unfit when hired, the  employer will be immune from vicarious                                                               
liability for punitive damages under  HB 214.  The employer would                                                               
be immune if  the employer did nothing to train  or supervise the                                                               
employee after the point of hiring.   Even if the employer turned                                                               
a blind eye to information  suggesting the very risk visited upon                                                               
the innocent by the employee,  the employer would still enjoy the                                                               
immunity of HB 214.  Therefore,  HB 214 is entirely too broad, he                                                               
suggested.   Mr. Schneider said  that there are no  real examples                                                               
of  punitive  damage  awards sustained  by  the  [Alaska  Supreme                                                               
Court] that  would cause  anyone to rush  to adopt  this measure.                                                               
Furthermore,  under   the  existing  tort  reform,   proof  [for]                                                               
punitive  damages,  as to  the  employee,  has  to be  clear  and                                                               
convincing,  and, if  the employer  is  vicariously liable,  [the                                                               
employer] has  to have a  connection to the activity  that brings                                                               
about the harm.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 0239                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE asked  Mr. Schneider  how many  times he  has seen                                                               
settlements occur  in response to  the mere threat of  a punitive                                                               
damages award by a jury.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SCHNEIDER informed  the  committee that  almost  all of  his                                                               
practice  focuses   on  representing  injured  Alaskans   or  the                                                               
families of Alaskans who have been  killed.  He said he has never                                                               
obtained  monies  for  punitive damage  exposure  because  juries                                                               
rarely award  those damages  and when they  do, those  awards are                                                               
reversed.   Mr. Schneider relayed  that he has  asserted punitive                                                               
damages or the possibility of  obtaining punitive damages as part                                                               
of the  settlement process, and  specified that he does  it every                                                               
time the conduct seems to  support the aforementioned allegation.                                                               
The practical effect  is that those people who  have been injured                                                               
and  have "a  dime's  worth" of  compensatory  damages have  some                                                               
hope, when  the company has legitimate  punitive damage exposure,                                                               
of  being fully  compensated  or getting  closer  to being  fully                                                               
compensated.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE  surmised,  then, that  while  [punitive  damages]                                                               
began  as   punishment,  they   have  turned   out  to   be  more                                                               
compensatory in an effort to make the innocent victim whole.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHNEIDER agreed.  He  emphasized, however, that there has to                                                               
be  outrageous conduct  and  it has  to be  proven  by clear  and                                                               
convincing evidence.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE  acknowledged that,  but highlighted  that punitive                                                               
damages  were originally  created to  punish those  entities that                                                               
willfully disregard information  that is known -  for example, in                                                               
the area  of consumer protection -  and proceed to act  with full                                                               
knowledge  and  "foreseeability"  about  the  potential  harm  to                                                               
victims.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 03-27, SIDE A                                                                                                            
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE  highlighted that the  legal system has  evolved to                                                               
the  point, particularly  with regard  to settlements,  where the                                                               
philosophical  distinction  between compensatory  damages,  which                                                               
are  to make  a victim  whole,  and punitive  damages, which  are                                                               
intended to  punish the  tort feasor  who might  have known  of a                                                               
foreseeable   harm   and   consciously  disregarded   it,   isn't                                                               
maintained.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHNEIDER  said that he  couldn't agree with  Chair McGuire's                                                               
assessment.   He  said that  he doesn't  see entities  paying his                                                               
clients for punitive  damages.  He noted  that occasionally, when                                                               
the punitive damage  exposure is there and when there  is talk of                                                               
a pre-trial settlement, clients may  be compensated.  However, he                                                               
pointed  out that  the  clients are  never  really paid  punitive                                                               
damages and, furthermore,  sums that go beyond  the actual losses                                                               
aren't paid.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE opined  that monies awarded in  a settlement simply                                                               
aren't being called punitive.   She recalled Mr. Schneider saying                                                               
that  he  did  believe  that  the mere  threat  or  assertion  of                                                               
punitive damages has led to greater compensation of victims.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SCHNEIDER remarked,  "I  believe  it has  and  I believe  it                                                               
should."                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GARA recalled  earlier remarks  regarding whether                                                               
the Alaska  Supreme Court  has indicated  a willingness  to adopt                                                               
the  new Restatement  (Second)  of  Agency ("Restatement")  rule,                                                               
which is included  in HB 214.  In reviewing  the Alaskan Village,                                                             
Inc.  v. Smalley,  720 P.2d  945, 948-49  (Alaska 1986),  he said                                                             
that he  didn't necessarily agree  that the Alaska  Supreme Court                                                               
is stating such  a willingness.  He requested  that Mr. Schneider                                                               
comment  on what  the Alaska  Supreme  Court has  said about  the                                                               
Restatement (Second) of Agency.   Representative Gara inquired as                                                               
to  whether Mr.  Schneider had  any  sense that  the rule  Alaska                                                               
currently follows for punitive damages remains a majority rule.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SCHNEIDER said  that he  had no  information on  the latter.                                                               
However,  he offered  that he  has a  strong impression  that the                                                               
Alaska Supreme Court  hasn't abandoned the ruling  in the Smalley                                                             
case, because if  such were the case, there  have been subsequent                                                               
opportunities.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. DAVIS  turned to Representative  Gara's first question.   She                                                               
informed the  committee that  the last case  in which  the Alaska                                                               
Supreme  Court was  presented with  this issue  was with  Laidlaw                                                             
Transit,  Inc. v.  Crouse,  on  August 30,  2002.   She  directed                                                             
attention  to   footnote  9  of   the  Laidlaw   decision,  which                                                             
references  that the  U.S.  Supreme Court  [is]  cutting back  on                                                               
punitive damages under  the due process clause,  the Alaska State                                                               
Legislature's  narrowing of  circumstances  under which  punitive                                                               
damages can be  awarded, and the [statutory] caps.   The footnote                                                               
ends  with  the   following  statement:    "In   light  of  these                                                               
developments, the Alaskan Village rule  may be anachronistic.  If                                                               
and when the  point is properly preserved and  raised, this court                                                               
may consider adopting the narrower complicity rule."                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. DAVIS  said that the  "narrower complicity  rule" essentially                                                               
is  HB 214.   Therefore,  she said  she understood  such to  be a                                                               
clear  indication  from  the [Alaska]  Supreme  Court  that  it's                                                               
uncomfortable with the  position that it has taken.   The problem                                                               
in  the Laidlaw  case was  that the  issue wasn't  raised at  the                                                             
trial  level, and  therefore when  it was  raised at  the supreme                                                               
court level, the [Alaska] Supreme  Court felt that it hadn't been                                                               
preserved.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE OGG recalled remarks  indicating that the language                                                               
in HB  214 won't cover an  employer operating by a  wink and nod.                                                               
He asked what is meant by the phrase, "a wink and nod."                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 0455                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
RAY R.  BROWN, Attorney  at Law, Dillon  & Findley,  PC, informed                                                               
the  committee  that he  is  a  trial  lawyer.   In  response  to                                                               
Representative Ogg, Mr. Brown said  he read the statute such that                                                               
an employer  can escape vicarious  liability for  punitive damage                                                               
by establishing  that the  employer didn't  authorize the  act or                                                               
omission.   No  one is  going to  ratify or  approve an  act once                                                               
vicarious liability  has been established.   Therefore,  it would                                                               
be  virtually  impossible  to  get  around  the  "wink  and  nod"                                                               
defense,  which most  of  these cases  are.   He  said that  this                                                               
[proposed] statute basically encourages  people to put their head                                                               
in the sand.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BROWN  informed the committee that  he'd had a case  in which                                                               
punitive damages were awarded, although  the case is going to the                                                               
supreme court.  This case was  one in which the employer would've                                                               
been immunized under HB 214.   He explained that the case was one                                                               
in which  a shock-jock radio  host in California,  who broadcasts                                                               
nationwide,  verbally  sexually  assaulted  a  woman  in  Juneau,                                                               
Alaska.  This radio host gave  out this woman's home phone number                                                               
and fax  number and encouraged  his listeners, young  males under                                                               
the age  of 40, [to  contact her].  As  a result, this  woman was                                                               
harassed, and  consequently experienced  a significant  amount of                                                               
stress.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BROWN said  that  if this  radio host  was  held liable  for                                                               
intentional misconduct  against the woman, the  employer would be                                                               
immune  under [HB  214] because  the employer  could say  that it                                                               
didn't  authorize  the act  or  omission  and doesn't  ratify  or                                                               
approve of  the radio  host's actions.   The  case is  before the                                                               
supreme court because [the employer]  was held directly liable on                                                               
a theory  of intentional spoliation  of evidence.  He  added that                                                               
under  the theory  of  the employer  acting  in misconduct,  that                                                               
issue  is before  the  supreme court  on  alleged erroneous  jury                                                               
instructions.   Therefore, Mr. Brown  said he was  concerned that                                                               
one  would never  be able  to establish  vicarious liability  and                                                               
[the employer] merely has to "wink and nod" to escape it.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0652                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BROWN specified that his main  problem with HB 214 is that he                                                               
didn't know  what "unfit" means  in Section 1 (k)(2)(A)  and (B).                                                               
Furthermore,  requiring   the  employer  to  act   recklessly  in                                                               
employing the employee  is problematic.  He  proffered an example                                                               
in  which an  employer  opens  a private  school  and pays  lower                                                               
salaries for  teachers and the  minimum qualification is  a four-                                                               
year degree.  If that [applicant]  had a sordid history of sexual                                                               
harassment and  predatory conduct  toward women and  children and                                                               
the employer  is negligent or  grossly negligent in  following up                                                               
on the  applicant's employment history,  the employer is  off the                                                               
hook.  Furthermore, if the employer  is deemed not to be reckless                                                               
in  employing the  applicant,  the employer  can  turn its  back,                                                               
acting  negligent  and  grossly   negligent  in  supervising  and                                                               
training  the employee,  and the  person  can run  rampant.   The                                                               
employer would remain off the hook for punitive damages.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. BROWN said that if the  committee is inclined to pass HB 214,                                                               
he hoped that the committee  would review Section 1 (k)(2)(A) and                                                               
(B) and  at least  change the language  to refer  to "negligent",                                                               
explain  the  meaning  of  "unfit",  and  expand  "employing"  to                                                               
include "supervising and training".                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE  pointed  out  that the  language  [in  Section  1                                                               
(k)(2)(A) and (B)] comes from  subsection (b) of the Restatement,                                                               
which  reads "(b)  the agent  was unfit  and the  principal or  a                                                               
managerial agent was reckless in employing or retaining him".                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE OGG  inquired as to  the language Mr.  Brown would                                                               
recommend to correct the "wink and nod" situation.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. BROWN  said that he  would like to submit  suggested language                                                               
to  the committee  in writing.   With  regard to  Chair McGuire's                                                               
point  that  the  language  comes  from  subsection  (b)  of  the                                                               
Restatement, Mr.  Brown commented that sometimes  taking language                                                               
directly  from the  Restatement  is  often difficult,  especially                                                               
when the  terms aren't defined.   He offered to  provide proposed                                                               
language that could satisfy the concerns of Ms. Davis.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 1018                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
KAREN  CASANOVAS,   Executive  Director,  Alaska   Air  Carrier's                                                               
Association,  informed   the  committee   that  the   Alaska  Air                                                               
Carrier's  Association  is  a  member  of  several  national  and                                                               
statewide  organizations,  many  of which  work  toward  economic                                                               
growth and  occasionally propose recommendations  for legislative                                                               
changes.    The  association's  interest  is  in  regard  to  the                                                               
punitive damages  discussion.  She  pointed out that in  1994 the                                                               
National  Conference  of  Commissioners   on  Uniform  State  Law                                                               
(NCCUSL)  established  a drafting  committee  on  the subject  of                                                               
punitive damages  and developed  a model  act.   Punitive damages                                                               
were thought to be an appropriate candidate for this model.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  CASANOVAS  said  she agreed  with  Chair  McGuire's  earlier                                                               
comment that  the direction [of  the legal system with  regard to                                                               
punitive  damages] has  changed  over the  years.   The  mounting                                                               
concern with regard to the role  of punitive damage awards in the                                                               
civil  justice  system  in  the U.S.  stems  from  the  perceived                                                               
increase in  size and  frequency of  the awards.   Often,  it was                                                               
argued,  the  size   of  the  awards  had   no  correlation  with                                                               
deterrence, but merely reflected  a jury's dissatisfaction with a                                                               
defendant and  a desire  to punish  the defendant  without regard                                                               
for the  actual conduct in  the particular situation.   She noted                                                               
that over the years, some of  the petitioners have taken cases to                                                               
the  supreme court  when some  constitutionality  limits were  in                                                               
question, for example, in the  case of excessive punitive damages                                                               
under the  Eighth Amendment in  the 1988  case of Bankers  Life &                                                             
Casualty Company  v. Crenshaw, 486  U.S. 71 (1988).   She pointed                                                             
out another  example, the  1991 decision  of Pacific  Mutual Life                                                             
Insurance Company  v. Haslip,  which falls  under due  process of                                                             
the Fourteenth Amendment.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. CASANOVAS  said that the American  Law Institute Restatements                                                               
regarding  vicarious responsibility  for punitive  awards support                                                               
that an employer is not  liable for punitive damages just because                                                               
an  employee   was  acting  within   the  course  and   scope  of                                                               
employment.   Since  punitive damages  serve solely  to deter  or                                                               
punish,  the  law requires  that  there  be some  wrongdoing  and                                                               
consideration of whether the party  would be deterred or punished                                                               
by   the  award.     She   relayed  the   Alaska  Air   Carrier's                                                               
Association's  belief that  HB  214 would  bar  an employer  from                                                               
being held  vicariously liable for the  punitive damages assessed                                                               
against  the  employee, except  when  there  was some  degree  of                                                               
culpability on the part of the employer.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. CASANOVAS said that the  association holds the belief that HB
214  won't impact  or limit  an employer's  direct liability  for                                                               
punitive  damages  due to  its  own  conduct.   This  legislation                                                               
would, she  said, provide certainty  and an appropriate  scope of                                                               
vicarious liability  to all  employers and  industries throughout                                                               
the  state.    Based  on  the  [Alaska]  Supreme  Court's  strong                                                               
suggestion, in the Laidlaw case, that  it would change the law in                                                             
the  future,  the  committee  could,  with  HB  214,  solve  this                                                               
problem.    Therefore,  she  added,   the  Alaska  Air  Carrier's                                                               
Association requests the committee's support in this matter.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 1215                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL R.  WIRSCHEM, Attorney  at Law, began  by noting  that he                                                               
has  been practicing  in Anchorage  for about  eight years.   He,                                                               
too, mentioned  that his experience  has been that  jurors rarely                                                               
award punitive  damages in this  jurisdiction; they [do  so] only                                                               
upon  clear and  convincing evidence  against the  offender.   He                                                               
understood the  question today to be  in regard to the  future of                                                               
vicarious   liability  -   holding  employers   liable  for   the                                                               
offender's misdeeds.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Wirschem said that there seems  to be some disagreement as to                                                               
the current  status of  punitive damage awards.   He  argued that                                                               
punitive damage  awards seem to be  few in Alaska, and  that this                                                               
would seem to  be a statement in opposition to  meddling with the                                                               
system.    The  history  under   common  law  is  that  vicarious                                                               
liability is  the rule  for employers being  held liable  for the                                                               
misdeeds  of  their employees.    Therefore,  without a  specific                                                               
problem,  he didn't  see the  need for  change.   He acknowledged                                                               
that employers  such as ERA probably  feel it would be  better if                                                               
they don't  have to pay  punitive damage  awards.  However,  as a                                                               
broad   policy  decision,   Mr.  Wirschem   requested  that   the                                                               
legislature think carefully  before making a change  in this area                                                               
of law.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE returned  to the  notion that  jury's never  award                                                               
punitive  damage  claims,  and  emphasized that  most  cases  are                                                               
settled.   Therefore,  she  asked if  the  potential exposure  to                                                               
punitive damages is a factor in the settlement negotiations.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WIRSCHEM  said that  according to  his experience,  he didn't                                                               
believe  so.   Moreover, other  aspects such  as changes  in tort                                                               
reform have made even bringing such a claim risky.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 1409                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GARA asked  if someone  could review  whether the                                                               
Alaska  Judicial  Council  has  produced  statistics  on  average                                                               
verdicts and on punitive damage verdicts.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. DAVIS said that she would try to find that information.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. WIRSCHEM agreed to do so as well.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE announced that public  testimony would be left open                                                               
and that HB 214 would be held over.                                                                                             

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